"Grindintosecond" (Grindintosecond)
11/11/2014 at 13:46 • Filed to: solutions
2
13|
"Grindintosecond" (Grindintosecond)
11/11/2014 at 13:46 • Filed to: solutions | 2
| 13 |
Can the Acura NSX and the pre-IRL indy cars hold the solution to the F1 engine note issue? The simple facts in both of those concepts might lend themselves to this idea. F1 is lacking the high revving engine note. It's engine management system is regulated to no more than 15k rpm, but the fuel system makes anything over 12k useless. There isn't enough fuel to make power at any rpm higher, and rpm makes better sound. I am about to discuss something that I'm sure anyone in F1 can refute and point out how much I really don't know. I do love trying to solve puzzle problems so If there are any F1 engine-engineers here at Jalopponik, please point out my dumb.
The NSX had less power then other sports cars but it did have a then astronomical 8,000 rpm of a small v-6. Nobody could understand how it's acceleration numbers were as good as they were. The answer came from its red-line. It could just plain stay in a lower gear much longer than anyone else and let it's high end power work the mechanical advantage. It had more power to the wheels at that speed. It only had 210 pounds of torque, but 270 hp at rpm levels inconceivable to anyone at the time but Ferrari, whose 348 redline was 500 rpm less and took longer to reach 60 and did it from a larger v8.
Let's look at the key to the F1 engine issue. If the fuel system only allows a maximum amount of fuel flow, then we only have a maximum amount of power that can be generated, regardless of the displacement. That happens at different rpm based on displacement size. The present 1.6 liter engines reach that power at 12k rpm. The pre-IRL Indy-500 had two engines in competition. the Race bred engines, and the stock block push-rod engines. Before Roger Penske spent a bazillion dollars to exploit an inherent advantage, we had a push-rod Buick based v-6 of 209 cubic inches, and a 161 cubic inch double overhead cam turbo v-8. The Buick engine, at first, had more power. 800@8,000 rpm. the other engines had 750 at 13,000. the Buick was constantly a threat for pole position but the smaller engine was right there with it, with less power, but with more mechanical advantage of the gearing making up the difference. A lower gearing and higher rpm. Those two engine types evolved over time and eventually had similar power levels, however the dominant one in the end was the smaller unit with upwards of 16k rpm, 75% more than the 9k of the push-rod. An advantage of leverage for sure. (Roger Penske did spend a gazillion dollars to make a push-rod race bred engine spin at 10k with 8 cylinders and win the race, but it was still much larger in displacement and won based on inherent fuel efficiency of the push-rod design making one pit stop less, not necessarily because of it's ultimate pole winning power being 1050hp. It was an economy race that year for the Ilmor Mercedes.) Engines like the Honda unit that set a world record at Fontana of the Ford/Cozzy X* series came out ahead
So let's look at the facts laid out. A bigger slower turning engine turning taller gears to go one speed vs. a smaller faster turning engine turning lower gears to go that speed. Right now, by my dumb math, I calculate a 1.3 liter v-6 will make the same power of the present F-1 units and do it at 15,000 rpm. Even if the noise is being consumed by efficiency systems, a higher pitch of it will satisfy more of our needs, right? It could possibly be faster in straight lines given the lower gearing as well.
Just thinking out loud.
norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
> Grindintosecond
11/11/2014 at 13:54 |
|
NO
|
Grindintosecond
> norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
11/11/2014 at 13:57 |
|
I understand. I do. I really do. FIA won't go back to that.
FIA wants economy and power. Noise comes from wasted power and I love me some wasted power noise, but reality is, making more power from limited resources. Make it smaller, spin it faster, make better sound in the end, achieve the same result.
|
norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
> Grindintosecond
11/11/2014 at 14:00 |
|
Yeah, kinda like what Le Mans has done in the LMP1 class. Yeah there might not be many cars but the tech is amazing.
titsinmymitts
> Grindintosecond
11/11/2014 at 14:07 |
|
the teams are considering a change back to the V8s.
EL_ULY
> Grindintosecond
11/11/2014 at 14:23 |
|
here are 2 videos I took. Both V6 turbo
Indy
F1
|
Grindintosecond
> EL_ULY
11/11/2014 at 14:40 |
|
position is different. If you were on the corner exit, the noise would be a different as they go by.
One on ethanol with mpg recommendations per lap and the other on gasoline with maximum fuel use limits and two energy recovery techs sapping engine exhaust noise into reusable power. I personally appreciate the noise of both but more rpm on the F1 engine can help quite a bit.
|
Grindintosecond
> titsinmymitts
11/11/2014 at 14:42 |
|
F1 should look at what they really want their goal to be. They are sort of open wheel versions of the ACO LeMans cars at this point. F1 can fix thei problem by unlimiting the fuel use regulation and letting these V6's become fire monsters WITH the hybrid gear, ala the Porsche 918 and LaFerrari. but if they keep the same regs, my postulation is that a smaller engine would sound better and have the same power via higher rpm.
Sweet Trav
> Grindintosecond
11/11/2014 at 14:45 |
|
Nope. lets go to large displacement high torque V8's 6.0+ L
|
EL_ULY
> Grindintosecond
11/11/2014 at 14:52 |
|
exit corner also :]
but yes I agree. I believe it is 12K max for Indy. Still, the development is there as we see with the new ATS-V. But that budget split between the series is crazy. I wonder if the V8's were really half the cost. Here is a vid I took last year. My ears were bleeding just like at Indy
|
Grindintosecond
> EL_ULY
11/11/2014 at 15:02 |
|
Yeah its 12k, but they're larger at 2.2 liters and no extra power sapping junk. I would believe they were cheaper v-8's. They didnt have to develop all sorts of tech for them and really just used what they knew from the 12/10 cylinder units, and manufacturing of them went on for several years. I'm sure since the configuration was standardized, a single parts maker probably made similar parts for all "brands". Pumps and what not.
|
EL_ULY
> Grindintosecond
11/11/2014 at 15:09 |
|
true. I'm sure there is a whole thing with suppliers
JEM
> EL_ULY
11/12/2014 at 11:52 |
|
Clearly we have the answer:
Make F1 teams buy all their engines from Indycar suppliers.
- F1 gets a glorious engine noise back
- Small F1 teams have a much cheaper engine supplier
- Indycar finally gets some @(*#^$$@ respect!
|
EL_ULY
> JEM
11/12/2014 at 12:01 |
|
YEEESSS!!!!!!